[MartinB]

How many people fly X-Plane with the mouse? I have been doing so since XP5 without a problem. Now in XP9 Austin has messed it up and despite constant emails between us he cannot (will not) see that what he's done is (1) a damn nuisance and (2) illogical.

The problem?
I steer my plane on the ground with the mouse - completely intuitive, and able to make the most subtle corrections.
I takeoff and need to use rudder to keep straight - I use the numeric keypad 1,3 and 0.
Fine. That's always worked perfectly from XP5 to XP8.64.

Now in XP9 I can steer on the ground with the mouse UNTIL I touch a rudder key. Then mouse steering is permanently disabled (until re-launch of XP).

Taxying on the ground with numeric keypad steering is like transmitting morse code - it's possible, but the mouse is SO much easier.
What's the point in changing? Austin can't give me a logical explanation and he certainly doesn't think it's a bug.
(Maybe he gets a cut out of selling joysticks etc...)

I'd quite like to have a poll to find out from mouse flyers who thinks the new system is an improvement?

[adkinsadam1]

That happens with my joystick as well. I can steer on the ground until the rudder is messed with.

[clavel9]

Sounds like more meddling for meddling's sake.

[MartinB]

clavel9, on Mar 10 2008, 12:50 PM, said:

Sounds like more meddling for meddling's sake.

Yes! Why fix it if it isn't broken?
The difficulty with Austin is that he is NEVER wrong. As someone else said to me, you know when you've won a logical argument with Austin because he doesn't reply
(Another example was changing cockpit forward view to SHIFT-W. I see that in RC1 he's reverted to W).

[six7]

I feel your pain Martin.

He's flip-flopped back and forth on this several times since V7. It drives me nuts. I've also bugged him several times about it. He claims that the vast majority of people prefer it "his way" (with the rudder and nosewheel inexorably tied together). I thought that was foolishness and didn't really believe him, so I started a poll at x-plane.com. Granted, not a lot of people are in our situation, but the trend of the results is inescapable.

I gave up going out of my way to convince others that they're wrong years ago. With most people that aren't swayed by logical argument, it's an exercise in futility.



edit: feel free to send him the results of the poll - I never did.

[MartinB]

six7, on Mar 10 2008, 02:35 PM, said:

edit: feel free to send him the results of the poll - I never did.

Thanks six7. I've forwarded the link to him.

[MartinB]

I quote from the latest response from Austin:


MB: What is the benefit in X-Plane 'assuming' that if I need to use rudder correction on takeoff, for example, that I WON'T want to be able to steer on the ground with the mouse just like I did BEFORE takeoff (just like I have been doing ever since X-P5) ?

AM: the benefit is that you might not want to steer with the mouse

MB: But I DO want to steer with the mouse on the ground - just as I have done for the past 6 or 7 years - because it gives all the subtle input control you intuitively apply in real life.

AM: i could not possibly give lets of a rat's ass about what you USED to do
we USED to ride horses rather than cars
i really dont give a shit what you USED to do
stuff what you USED to do right up your ass, and focus on the RIGHT way to do things!!!!!
you have implied it is ILLOGICAL to drive a car since you rode horses for years
this is dumb
dont waste my time with that idiotic attempt at "LOGIC" again

(Did I upset him or something? Now that's what I call customer service! )

[chksix]

LOL That's amazing!

I think he's being overworked by the pressure to drop the new copy protection scheme.

[airbusfreak]

In my opinion you should invest $30 (or less) into a joystick. Wouldn't hurt much at all. Also in real airplanes, the aileron doesn't control the nosewheel, and the mouse in xp is the aileron. So I see two solutions:
1. Buy a joystick
2. Tell Austin to add a rectangle under the mouse box to control the rudder.
Just my 2 cents.

[six7]

It's not that I can't afford a joystick. My most powerful computer also happens to be my main work computer and I can't really keep a joystick kicking around. Don't really have the space and doesn't look terribly professional.

Austin's argument is one of the dumbest comparisons I've ever heard.

[MartinB]

six7, on Mar 11 2008, 07:02 AM, said:

It's not that I can't afford a joystick. My most powerful computer also happens to be my main work computer and I can't really keep a joystick kicking around. Don't really have the space and doesn't look terribly professional.

Austin's argument is one of the dumbest comparisons I've ever heard.

That's my position exactly! And I've been flying X-Plane with a mouse since XP5.2.

This is just another example of Austin's "I'll change this because I know I'm right" decisions, and when it's questioned he is SO convinced of his own infalibility that he can't even read the bug report. He just sees what he wants to see.
Example:
I have made it ABSOLUTELY clear that I am talking about flying with MOUSE and KEYBOARD, ONLY! Here's one of his responses:

"i dont understand what you mean
you use phrases like ", mouse/nosewheel steering becomes inactive" and "determined by rudder input above a specified speed", but you never mention what rudder input you refer to: rudder pedals, key input, mouse-linage, or aileron joystick linkage.
your spec above is too vague to be of any use."

Did I EVER mention using pedals or joystick?

I appreciate airbusfreak's note that "the aileron doesn't control the nosewheel, and the mouse in XP is the aileron". Of course. And from an eye candy point of view it looks a bit dumb seeing the ailerons working away while you're taxying and steering. But the point I've tried to make to Austin is that the old system WORKED. In a heavy, nosewheel steering becomes greatly reduced above about 20 kt (you can set these parameters in Planemaker), so although in theory, in a crosswind if you are using ailerons into the wind (therefore nosewheel steering into the wind too), using rudder to correct the weathercock effect as the speed builds overpowers any minor nosewheel effect. It works.

Taking this further, I did suggest to Austin that on the ground mouse controls nosewheel and ailerons (as it does now BUT ONLY if you don't touch keypad rudder), and that above 20kt (or whatever you choose in Planemaker) nosewheel steering is deactivated, and activated again when you land and brake below a specified speed. But you've now seen how rational he is. I think he won't have the attention span to even read this (Strange - I always thought you needed to be able to comprehend a situation and think logically to be a programmer).

Anyway - I know that there are far greater problems to be solved. Heaven help Morten etc if this is the kind of battle they have to fight to get Austin to look at a serious problem.

[MartinB]

And so it continues....

MB: So here's a suggestion: Why not:
1. Mouse steers on ground - as it does now on a fresh launch of X-Plane
2. On takeoff roll, mouse/nosewheel steering becomes inactive determined by rudder input above a speed (which can be specified in Planemaker)
(It can already be set to limited angle above a chosen speed - typically 20kt in a heavy)
3. On landing, mouse/nosewheel steering becomes active again below the set speed.

AM: i dont understand what you mean
you use phrases like ", mouse/nosewheel steering becomes inactive determined by rudder input above a speed", but you never mention what rudder input you refer to: rudder pedals, key input, mouse-linage, or aileron joystick linkage.
your spec above is too vague to be of any use.

MB: (Did I EVER mention using pedals or joystick?)
1. I am only using mouse and keyboard.
2. I steer the nosewheel with the mouse (mouse/nosewheel steering)
3. I operate the rudder (ruder input) with numeric keypad


AM: but how can you steer the NOSEWHEEL with the MOUSE, and the RUDDER with the KEYPAD, when, in the real airplane, the rudder and nosewheel are, in many planes, linked together?

MB: In X-Plane in a typical heavy, nosewheel steering becomes limited to maybe 2.5 degrees above 20kt during takeoff.
In a crosswind from the right, where I want to hold some right aileron, by the time I've reached 50kt, any nosewheel steering effect (as a result of being linked to the right aileron) has been overpowered by the need to apply left rudder which becomes more powerful as speed builds.

[Utke]

I have always had a gut feeling that Austin was an ass, with no service skills what so ever, and after reading the responses he gave Martin i now know that i was right
If you read this Austin i suggest that you go outside , get laid, and sell your business to someone who actualy care about people who spend money on your product

what an ass****



Nik

[chksix]

That's what hitting the "Wall of Austin" sounds like. Let's call it Austin 1.0 or A1.0 similar to Mach 1.

I think I've dared to reach A .85 or something since I didn't get told off like that.

[MartinB]

Back to the 'problem' for a moment... I've just been exploring key assignment options. There's one called 'Toggle nosewheel steering". Ah! Could this be what I'm looking for? NO! What is does it to toggle between nosewheel steering (linked with rudder) and letting the nosewheel castor freely - which is probably what you need on the takeoff roll. So not what I was hoping for. In addition it doesn't behave quite as it should: when standing still in gusty winds, the nosewheel flicks about like a weather cock - I don't think it should change direction till the plane starts rolling. But am I going to tell Austin? No. It might be the last straw......

[MartinB]

Well....I don't know what I said..... I must be dreaming.... I've actually just had a request from Austin to explain what I think I would like and he says he will consider it

Here's what he says:

AM:
>> you've given me some fragmentary bits of information, and statements like 'rudder' and 'nosewheel steering', even though i am not clear if you want the two to be hooked together... NORMALLY, of course, in a real airplane, they are hooked together, but, of course, in an airliner, the steering tiller can be used independently of the rudder.

so, i still lack a complete report from you on how you think the system should work.

your last report made some references to what controls what, when, but was not complete since i was not clear on what controlled rudder, when, and what controlled nosewheel steering, and when.

so, send a complete report on what controls control what axis in what conditions, and i can consider it!

but just saying 'make the mouse do the nosewheel again' is too vague... what about the rudder? how do you do a crosswind takeoff if the mouse controls the rudder? or does the mouse only do the nosewheel, and not the rudder? or both? i dont think you ever said.

so give a COMPLETE report on how the system should work, and i will consider it, IF i think it can meet every condition!

thanks!

austin <<

Now, I thought I'd explained every little detail as simply and concisely and unambiguously as I could, so I think I'd better get a good night's sleep before I attempt to compose a response. (and perhaps I should get a lawyer to check it before sending )

Wish me luck!

[clavel9]

Good luck! Awaiting your next report with interest...

[MartinB]

OK - this is what I have suggested to Austin:

Here are two options I suggest - for flying with mouse.
I'll give the short versions first, then expand with any additional comments or explanation, but I'm trying to keep as concise as possible:


Option 1

A. Leave XP9 as it is, plus
B. Add a toggle key which switches between :
a . the current mouse behavior when you initially launch XP9 (call it TAXI mode) and
b . the current mouse behavior after you start using numeric keypad for rudder, on takeoff roll (call it FLIGHT mode).

Option 2

As Option 1
A. except that in TAXI mode the mouse steers nose-wheel but does NOT operate ailerons (and elevator).
B. In FLIGHT mode the mouse operates ailerons and elevator (as s it does currently), and numeric keypad operates rudder with nose-wheel steering (as s it does currently).



Expanded explanation

Option 1

A. Leave XP9 as it is
Benefit: On first launch of XP9, if I start at the ramp, the setup is fine - I can steer the plane to the runway using the mouse, which is easy and gives subtle control of steering.
Disadvantage: Eye Candy - ailerons are moving as I steer, which isn't as in real life, but at least it doesn't affect ground steering.

B. Add a toggle key which switches between TAXI mode and FLIGHT mode.
Benefit: Behavior of steering on the ground can be the same before and after FLIGHT mode.
Disadvantage: You need to remember which mode you're in and therefore may need a visual indicator.

Option 2

As Option 1 with he addition of the toggle key between TAXI mode and FLIGHT mode, except that
A. In TAXI mode the mouse steers nose-wheel but does NOT operate ailerons (and elevator*).
Benefit: same as Option 1 PLUS is more realistic - the ailerons are not seen to be operating with the nose-wheel steering while taxying.
Disadvantage: Same as option 1 - You need to remember which mode you're in and therefore may need a visual indicator.

(* Perhaps in TAXI mode the mouse should operate the elevator - in GA aircraft you may need to hold up elevator while taxying on grass to prevent prop contact ?)



One further point regarding nose-wheel steering:
XP9 already has a toggle option called "Toggle nose-wheel steer". As far as I can see this toggles between nose-wheel steering with rudder, and nose-wheel castoring (turning freely) and should still be an option in TAXI mode and FLIGHT mode.
For example:
in TAXI mode you might want to steer by differential braking or, in a twin with differential power, so you'd select nose-wheel castoring.
in FLIGHT mode you may want to let the nose-wheel castor during takeoff run.
You still need to remember which mode you're in (Would you need another visual indicator?).


Conclusion
I would prefer Option 2, but I would be quite happy with Option 1.
Option 1 would be easier for XP9 beginners who may not bother with using the rudder at all.
Also, I don't know how joystick users steer on the ground and takeoff run - but maybe the idea of a TAXI mode and FLIGHT mode could work for them too?

Thanks for considering the above - please let me know if it's not clear enough and you need any further clarification.

Martin

[MartinB]

Well the wind has changed direction again. Here's the concluding response:

go take this up with info@x-plane.com

i dont feel like talking to you any more when you needle, needle, needle me over the tiniest detail that revolves around your own lack of hardware when i am in the middle of trying to make 100 people happy on 10 different projects at once, and then go complain in self-righteous self-pity when i FINALLY blow up once.

of COURSE you can post whatever you want at x-plane.org.. that's your freedom.

and mine is to not talk to you if i dont want to.

go to talk to my tech support guy (info@x-plane.com)

he is always very, very, polite, and nice.

since that is what you need, that is who you should talk to.

i'm done talking to you though.

and of course you will post this email at .org as well.

again, your freedom.

but when i have 100 people all screaming 100 different things at me at once on 10 different projects at once, and when the tiniest of complaints from someone who lacks of the most BASIC requirements for the job (stick-n-rudder) causes you to send me 10 emails and then say "LOOK EVERYBODY! LOOK AT WHAT AN ASSHOLE AUSTIN IS!" when i FINALY lose it, guess what? it is clear i am better off not talking to you!

i have more important things to do than tweak the interface to your tiniest demands and most minute level of detail just to make the sim work EXACTLY like YOU want it to, when you won't even go to the trouble to buy the most basic right hardware for the job.

quit complaining about how you cannot do your crosswind take-offs and landing QUITE the way YOU want with the MOUSE, and get a joystick and pedals.
-----
Amen

[H2S]

Now that I've stopped laughing .. and, once again, mused at Austin's endearing lack of soothing platitudes in the art of Customer Care, I have to agree with him that stick'n'pedals is undoubtedly the only real way to go.